Thursday, August 17, 2006

Existentialism

Existentialism is in many ways a difficult philosophical position to evaluate, because it is only by some stretch of the imagination that we can call it a "position." I think it would be better to think of existentialism as a philosophical attitude or way-of-thinking, of which a particular assortment of philosophical positions are characteristic. For this reason, it becomes difficult to either applaud or denounce existentialism as a whole, because it is not by its nature so unified as to justify such generalizations. I feel that it is better evaluate some of its typical components piece by piece. Specifically, I intend to evaluate the relations between existentialism and a Christian worldview.
Existentialism centers around the idea that there are two spheres of reality: the external, objective sphere comprising the physical universe, and the internal, subjective sphere which is the domain of the human will and individual experience. External reality is absurd; it is nothing more than the random happenings of a mindless universe, and it can offer us no source of meaning. That can only be found within: we must create meaning and values ourselves through individual acts of will.

From a purely objective standpoint, several difficulties appear with this position. The first is that unless our philosophy contains an absurd degree of idealism, we must suppose that we are derived from the larger scope of existence outside of ourselves, and not the other way around. In this way, the fact that we have the faculties of will and experience are themselves absurdities if the universe in which we live is devoid of them. In this way, existentialism is ultimately a philosophy of denial: we can see rationally that a purely materialistic universe is empty and meaningless, and so we say "lets just ignore that fact and go on assuming that our consciousness has meaning."

Yet this statement is certainly not unjustified. The statement that our experience as humans is meaningful, can, in my opinion, stand as a worthwhile proposition on its own independently of external proof, in the same manner that we make other observations about existence, like tree bark is rough and 2+3=5. It is certainly no more irrational to argue that existence as a whole has meaning because we experience it than it is to say that existence apparently has no meaning, so our individual experience must, in fact, be meaningless. Both are correct conclusions of their respective premises; it is these premises themselves that must be subject to our evaluations. But that, of course, is another issue that will perhaps be dealt with at another time. The point is that the contention of existentialism does not have this logical consistency: it states that the universe that gave us being is absurd, and then goes on to say that we ourselves are not absurd. I cannot see where genuine meaning and rationality can arise on their own out of indifference and absurdity. In this way existentialism says "well, it really doesn’t make sense, but this is just how it is, and we’ll have to deal with it as best we can."

The other difficulty is that of creating values. Once again, this seems to thrust existential thinking into an exercise in make-believe. It is certainly true that we can choose to value things, or regard them as good. But we cannot make things valuable, or inherently worthy of being viewed as good. We can create values, but not value. If such were not the case, and we were capable of making things good by our own will, it would be most rational to call anything the outcome of which is beyond our control "good’, for this would make there be the most possible good in the world. So when a tsunami strikes and millions die, it would be up to us to make there be more good in the world and decide that this occurrence was "good." The fact that we would inevitably not choose this to be a value in preference for things like life and health and well-being suggests that these are valuable by themselves independently of our valuing them.
Both of these objections contrast starkly with a Christian worldview. First of all, in a Christian worldview, external, objective reality is not absurd; it is the meaningful work of a transcendently conscious Being. Therefore, the fact that we can have meaningful experience in life is not difficult to reconcile with the reality we perceive beyond our own existence; there is a clear source of meaning and value in life. Secondly, we cannot say that we create our own value, not only because the very idea of actually doing so is absurd, but that value has already been created and is an integral part of created existence, and it is the role of our free will to allow this value to become our values, and thus be conformed to what we were made to be.

However, much of existential thought has worthwhile relevance to a Christian worldview. There are three areas here that I would like to discus. The first is what Kierkegaard referred to as the individual relation to the absolute. In many ways, it is a fair assessment that western Christianity is too individualist already. However, if this is not understood to mean an attitude of personal independence or the lack of duty to those around us, it has tremendous importance that is often missed: the fact that our ultimate purpose as beings is to make individual acts of will that glorify God by choosing a relationship with Him, choosing His moral law, choosing to rely on the righteousness and death of Christ rather than our own flawed righteousness of our own making. This is, I believe, the sense in which we are commanded above all things to love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength: this is the individual relation to the absolute.

The second existential concept that fits in well with a Christian worldview is the fact that we have an ultimate duty to ourselves. That sounds very anti-Christian, and in fact, it is. I must qualify it by saying that we rather have an ultimate duty to what we are as beings, no matter what we regard as the source of our being-hood. Therefore, this concept must be a part of any belief system. For the Christian, it is important to recognize that we have a duty to God because of what we are: His creatures, made to live and act and choose according to His design for us. In order to see that something is good, we must see how it is good for us: not necessarily in a hedonistic sense, but by the sense in which our own existence and experience must itself have moral value in order for our choices regarding God’s created order to have real moral value in terms of our relation to it. This only illustrates more strongly the concept of our individual relation to the absolute, and our beautiful duty to a magnificent and holy, and loving God.

The last existential concept that has relevance in a Christian worldview which I would like to discuss is the movement of faith which Kierkegaard also discusses. In a universe which is, though not absurd, often outside of our complete understanding, we must make choices with best that we have. We do not create values by making these choices, but we do affirm them. By making the movement of faith in God and Jesus Christ, we show our belief in Him and our love by the internal movement we have made, which necessarily becomes manifest in our external actions.

31 comments:

Ron said...

Good post, although I am personally very partial to existentialism after reading Kierkegaard's Sickness unto Death, along with Fear and Trembling. I've checked out Works of Love from the library (another one of his books) and I'll read that soon too. What I liked most about Kierkegaard is that he acknowledges that the problem of despair that we encounter is an internal problem, and thus a psychological one. In The Sickness unto Death he describes the problem of despair as the lack of one acknowledging that one is a being before God and must obey our Creator. Since Kierkegaard is a Christian he presupposes that God exists, Christ was his Son, and all that. To Kierkegaard, it isn't about proving that the Christian God is objectively true since we cannot know truly about objective truth.

Although, I very much like the argument from morality by C.S. Lewis in Mere Christianity, I think that objective moral values by there very nature cannot be proved apart from very subjective people. For example, I may claim that killing babies is objectively morally evil (and I believe that to be the case), however, all I am really saying in that statement is that most reasonable people would agree with my subjective opinion. Of course an 14th century Aztec who sacrifices children to a fertility god would disagree, but I can safely say that he is in no way “reasonable” and thus he is an aberration from the “objective moral value” that killing babies is wrong. Existentialism (at least Kierkegaard’s version) states that we exist as beings before God and that we have a duty to ourselves and Him to acknowledge ourselves before him and live in His Son. In this way we bypass all the problems we find ourselves when we try to rationally prove that God or “objective moral values” exist. We just create a short-cut. We say just flat out say that this is how it is: you are a being who is in despair because you are apart from God. God and be a self who wills to be himself before God. I like this type of existentialism more than rational arguments about “objective” things because discussing “objective reality” in relation to God, morals, duty, etc. is tough and I know that I didn’t come to God by way of philosophically and factually proving it to myself. I don’t think such a proof would ever really satisfy me.

Christian existentialism presupposes the Christian God and the problem is that most people don’t recognize that they exist before that God. The world seems meaningless because you have had people like that hypothetical Aztec dude who sacrifices children to his god, as with the Palestinian suicide bomber who thinks that blowing himself up is the best way to serve his people and serve God. The main problem I have with Kierkegaard, mainly in his Fear and Trembling is the fact that someone could existentially be a Muslim fundamentalist who wants to blow up buildings in America. I know saying this is an insult to hardcore existentialists but if we are to be intellectually honest, we have to admit that it is true. So we can’t say that the world is completely devoid of objective morals because if that were the case than it’d be ok for me to convert to radical Islam and blow up buildings, provided that I had an existential transformation.

I think a balance has to be found. Yes, the world is not as predictable as a clock but neither is it totally random like rolling dice (of course if you had perfect information even rolling dice is not really random, but you get my point I hope). The world has a combination of absurdity and regularity to it so that rational people can disagree about the need to exist “before God.” For some reason, God placed us here and now we have to find our way to Him. He left us hints of him in things like morals, science, philosophy, etc. but we have to find our way back to Him. G.K. Chesterton once said that we are like shipwrecked sailors stranded on an island except that we have no memory of what we were before. We see broken pieces of the ship and know somewhere in our hearts that we were meant to live for a whole lot more than just surviving on this island but we can’t fully convince ourselves of this fact. We have shreds of evidence that are held together by a faint dream; a distant recollection. All is needed is an existential leap of faith.

Dang, this was a long comment.

Micah said...

Ron, I love that metaphor by Chesterton; thanks for sharing that. This post was mostly a response to atheistic existentialism, so it was interesting to read your comments reflecting a Christian existentialist perspective. I didn't mean to scrape this perspective over the rocks, sinse in some ways I regard myself as a Christian existentialist.

You make some good points here. It's true that complete objectivity is difficult if we are interested in absolute proof. I think the important thing to recognize is that nobody can in most absolute sense prove anything-but we can demonstrate certain positions to either be rational or irrational. I'm not going to try to prove that God exists, moral values are objective, or Christianity is true, but I can make objective arguments that demonstrate these are certainly no less, if not more, rational than the alternatives.

You also point out that very few people come to God by means of philosophical or objective proof. This is certainly worth noting, and I've even been thinking of writing a post partly concerning that. But I think that a mistake has often been made by dichtomizing the realms of objective reality and internal experience. If you read my post on science versus religion, this is partly addressed. I don't think that there is anything inherently more rational about knoweldge gained impirically (external experience) than internal experience, by which we can have a relationship with God. While I believe that many good external arguments exist for God and Christianity, we can really regard our internal experience of Him as objective: not in the sense that others can equally attest to it, but that it can, upon equal grounds of intellectual honesty, allow for rationally justified faith.

Thanks for commenting; I really appreciate your interest in my post.
Blessing in Christ,
Micah

Anonymous said...

I am a huge fan of Kierkegaard. I have chewed on his conceptions of human freedom and human relation to God for quite a while, and although I agree with him on a lot of things, I believe I disagree with his position that salvation is in the hands of humans. Perhaps I have misinterpreted his position, but from what I can tell, he places the final decision of salvation in the hands of humans...it is their free choice to accept or reject God.

Have you ever read "The Brothers Karamazov"? Or at least the chapter called "The Grand Inquisitor"? It seems to me that there are two plausible ways to interpret what the message is that Dostoevsky is trying to get across with this chapter. One possibility, which I believed for a while, is that he is trying to say: indeed, humans have this absolute freedom granted by Christ/God, yet humans give it up to be servants of sin, for they would rather give up their individuality than be free and stand before God alone. In this view, the Grand Inquisitor is missing the point, because he simply does not see the value of this absolute freedom. He fails to see the glory of the free choice of faith.

The other possible view -- towards which I am now persuaded -- is that Dostoevsky is trying to say that the Grand Inquisitor is wrong in thinking that the world was set up to give each human beings absolute freedom. In this view, Doestoevsky is trying to convey how absurd the very common Christian conception of the "free choice of faith" is. But in this view, the Grand Inquisitor IS correct in asserting that such a position about salvation does not portray a loving God.

This second view jibes more with what Doestoevsky seems to be trying to say through the Elder Zosima and Alyosha, which is that God loves everyone and that he will save everyone. Then again, I'm only three quarters of the way through the book. Perhaps I have yet to see Alyosha change his mind about salvation...perhaps he will come to think that all men are responsible for their own salvation.

I find that such a position robs Ephesians 2:8 (I hope I have the right verse here) of any significance, since in truth, faith becomes a work. I feel pretty confident that the freedom and joy that dawned upon Martin Luther one day did not come from a conception of faith in which faith is a free choice of the person, a thing "to be done by" the person.

And in my own life of faith, I do not see that my faith began with an exertion of my will. Before "accepting" Jesus, I found some magic already at work in my heart. Now perhaps this was just God "preparing me for the crucial moment of decision," but this does not seem to be the case. It seems to me that God spoke, and my heart responded, and eventually I could no longer ignore the tugging of my heart.

In addition, this "free choice of faith" doesn't seem to have much Biblical support. In fact, I am wondering if there are any verses containing compelling support for this.

This is the fruit of my experience so far, and I am only another brother trying to figure out this life of following Christ.

I appreciate your blog!

hang loose in Christ,
Jathan

Micah said...

Hey Jathan,
It's interesting that you mention The Brothers Karamazov, because it's been on my list to read for some time, and I finally bought a copy just a few days ago. I'll look forward to reading it even more now!

You bring up some very important points here. I've recently done some reading on the doctrine of justification by faith alone, and that really fits in with what your saying here. I think that there is a strong tendancy in Christianity today to look at salvation and say "see what I did". Have you ever heard that song in which it is repeatedly sung "I found Jesus?" We seem to be drifting from the main point that He found us. Faith indeed can become a work: some virtue within us that becomes grounds for salvation. I would agree that this is completely contrary to the message of the Cross. The grounds for our salvation is the blood and righteousness of Christ, to which faith, or belief, simply connects us.

However, I think there is an important theological balance here. You mentioned that you couldn't think of any Scriptural reference to free choice of faith, and it's true that the Bible doesn't ever use terms like that. However, both the gospels and Paul's letters make frequent reference to belief:

"If you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Christ is Lord, you will be saved."

"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who send me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." (John 5:24)

"I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."(John 8:24)

The entire passage of John 3:10-21 is a good example too. While our salvation is completely grounded on what Christ has done, we are not passive in believing in it; that is, accepting it for ourselves. Christ emphasized repentence very strongly. It's not as though we can repent in a way that satisfies God on our own, or that the attempt is enough to deserve His grace. The point is that God, having acted to secure our salvation in Christ, and having worked in our hearts through His spirit, desires a willfull response to His inititive, whereby we accept His grace for ourselves.

Nonetheless, I believe that a proper attitude will minimize the role of man in accepting God's grace, and emphasize the actual work that has been done for us on the cross. Unfortunately, the human tendancy is to emphisize the opposite. So yes, human free will is important, but it is the God who in His sovereignty gave it to us Who deserves recognition.

Those are my thoughts, anyway. It can be a trickey issue in which to find balance. Thanks for your comments, they are appreciated!

Blessings in Christ, Micah

Anonymous said...

You are in for a treat! "Brothers" is an astounding book, at least for many. Dotoevsky is my favorite writer. Kierkegaard probably second.

Sounds like your views of salvation have much similarity to mine. I think that believing comes from the heart, and some people's hearts do not respond to the message in believe. But I cannot think of believing as an exertion of the will. The simplest reason for this is that I have never been able to believe anything by trying to.

I have, on the other hand, convinced myself many times that I believed something through the exertion of the will, but God seems to have been faithful in breaking me down again and showing me that I was fooling myself. Either that, or it is just in the nature of who I am that such thinking would not last for long.

Humans tend to have an amazing capacity for fooling themselves. It's incredible! We can swim around in our own ideas like fish in a fishbowl, isolating ourselves from other real people and things.

I agree with all of the verses that you listed. Yet none of them seem to me to imply that belief is the result of the will. This is all tricky talk, I suppose, since where does the will itself come from? Perhaps it is enough to say that both the will and belief have a mysterious origin. I cannot believe that either choice or belief come about randomly, as some extreme "free will" advocates would have it.

On the other hand, I cannot believe that God just chooses everything to be exactly as it is. Nothing will sap my enthusiasm for life from me sooner than that!

There seems to be some mysterious balance, originating in God (for I believe God himself is free), between spontaneity and necessity. Such ideas are the only way that I can try to objectively conceptualize free will (that is, treat human free will as an object that can be observed as such).

I am more inclined to believe that the freedom of man is rooted in the freedom of all creation, which originates in God's free act of creating. I look at the world and I do not see what I would expect if I believed that everyone has a completely uninfluenced choice for or against God's love.

Yet if we are even influenced by things of the world toward or away from God, how is it that our wills are free? It seems to me that the only conception of human free will that holds is this: that we are free when God presents us with alternatives and a yet-to-be-made future, and we realize that we can make a decision from the depths of our souls.

The problem, as I see it, with common Christian conceptions of free will that I come across is that they present the human soul as a fairly unmalleable thing, which goes against both what I find in my life experience and what I find in the Bible.

What I see all around me is a world of mysterious origin, grounded in the power of God, but also not completely of God's character, loaded with people who are very much molded by this world.

I think this molding has very much to do with whether a human spirit is of the right temperment to believe upon hearing the message. I agree that repentance is key. But I am of the persuasion that repentance is called out of us. True repentance does not occur unless it comes from the depths of our soul. And I have never experienced nor heard of such depths being under the control of one's own will.

Take care buddy!
Jathan

Anonymous said...

A minor adjustment to what I said above:

In an act of human freedom, I think God presses upon us not only that we CAN make a choice from the heart of our souls, but that we MUST, for in that moment we realize that to try to turn away from the decision is itself a reflection of what we are "about deep down." That indecision is itself a decision is a thought I borrow from Kierkegaard.

Jathan

Ron said...

Good thoughts jathan. I like the part where you say,

"What I see all around me is a world of mysterious origin, grounded in the power of God, but also not completely of God's character, loaded with people who are very much molded by this world."

I talked briefly with my dad about Christianity and all I got was that the Catholic Church has done terrible things throughout history, Jesus' mother probably had him out of wedlock but the evangelists had to conceal that by inventing the "virgin birth" story, the OT God is repulsive because he orders the mass killings of entire races of people, etc.

Anyway, thats a who other can of worms that I didn't know how to deal with. But I resolved after that to use whatever willpower I have to show that living according to the Light is possible and even beneficial. When my dad looks at Christianity all he sees are hypocrites, Pharisses. It's all about scaring people into belief in order to get "saved" from eternal hell.

I remember in John when Jesus said that the "ruler of this world is coming," because I think the randomness and tragety of life, people living in skepticism without hope, and all the physical suffering shows that while God is the Light, their is a lot of darkness. But in the midst of all the darkness, there are some beams of light. I see them in certain people, in nature, and in religious ideals. I see people knowing that the world is a place of random evil but still trying to be good. Christians who know and have experienced firsthand the evils of people perhaps in their own Christian groups but have still held fast to the teachings of Jesus.

Like jathan I think that it is a matter of will. Perhaps not just our will but to a large extent, God's will. At least that's what my reading of the NT tells me.

And "The Brothers Karamazov" is a good book thus far. I am about 200 pages into it. He is an engaging author.

Micah said...

Jathan-
some thoughts on will. I was thinking about the relation between human will and faith, and agreed that whatever faith brings us to Christ cannot be a matter of effort. Yet I think it gets confusing when we use the term "will", because I think more than one thing can be meant by it. When we talk about will power, or acts of will, we mean the exersion of effort to make something that we really want come to pass. Yet I would give the word "will" a more fundamental definition (sorry if I'm just playing word games here) by saying that will is that which first induces such work or acts or striving. In this way, I think that faith in Christ can be by an act of will, insofar as it is simply a choice we make based on what we really desire in our hearts.

I think what you were talking about here, though was the very issue of where such desires come from. I think that many people make the mistake of assuming that free choice means uninfluenced choice, which is, (in my opinion) impossible. I think that God can speak to our hearts in many ways, and present choices to us that we could not otherwise make, and if we would choose Him, He provides the "grace of faith", as refered to in Ephesians 2:8.

Indeed, the human soul gives every sign of being malleable. It is hard to find the ballance between viewing humans as completely independent beings who make unifluenced choices and creatures who are mere subjects to the inevitable. I suspect that you may be on the right track. Thanks and blessings in Christ,
Micah

Ron-
I heard the title to this book once (maybe you've seen it or read it) called "when bad Christians happen to good people". I haven't read the book, but I find this statement sadly true. Many people seem to be embittered against Christianity because of the hypocracy that is unfortunatly sometimes present. I commend you for being a witness to your dad by simply showing that Christianity isn't about that through how you live. Our actions and relationships are, in the long run, a far better argument for Christ than any intellectual proof that we can bring.
Thanks for your comments!
Blessings,
-Micah

Anonymous said...

Yeah Ron! "Brothers" forever! :-)

Micah,

Thanks for trying to clarify the meaning of "will." This business does tend to get messy, since we are talking about things that can hardly be described. It seems that we agree with each other, more or less, about the nature of faith. I was hoping to share some more thoughts/questions with you...

Have you thought much about the position on salvation that is typically called "Universal Reconciliation" or "Universal Salvation" or "Christian Universalism"? I believe I have recently converted to this stance, though I am not outspoken about it yet, since I tend to be cautious about new ideas and tend to like the logic of ideas to be a crisp as possible in my mind. Yet I feel that I cannot avoid having this stance now.

I used to hold a view quite similar to that of C.S. Lewis, or at least the one that he proposes in the "Great Divorce." I have never read it, but I have heard all about it. I noticed that you like C.S. Lewis books, and that you posted a comment on one of Ron's blogs that seemed to mirror Lewis' thinking. Though I held this view for a while, I would repeatedly re-evaluate it, for something seemed wrong about it. At first they were mere sentiments, but eventually I began to notice how my views concerning salvation, as well as the views of others, affect my view of God, my view of myself, and my view of my neighbors.

You seem to be (at the least) fairly familiar with the Bible. Have you noticed that Lewis' position has little support from the Scriptures? I suppose its more in the tone than anything. I cannot remember finding a passage that describes hell as a place where some people want to go. (I'd love to hear of some if you know any.)

You mentioned that we do not want to end up with a view where everything is inevitable. I agree fully. There is something vital underlying the common need to believe in free will, so the theories about it cannot be completely bunk, in my opinion. But I have this question: even if there is much left for us to decide and to create, even if God has given us his image in our ability to be "mini-gods", what would be so bad about the inevitability of all being saved, sooner or later, somehow?

I feel that typical Christians are trying to tell the world two stories that cannot be simultaneously true. One story is that the world suffers and needs Christ, that it needs to hear good news, that it needs hope, that it needs a Savior, that the world is caught in sin, that it is doomed without God, that we Christians should have pity on our unbelieving neighbors, for these poor souls have no hope, they are lost, they need to be reclaimed, and God desires that all men be saved, because he loves everyone without exception and wants everyone to be in loving communion with him -- to KNOW him. Sounds like good reason to spread the gospel, no?

The other story is that (and THIS version of this second story is much more liberal than what many would preach) God gives at least one crucial moment of decision to every human being, in one way or another, (there's the liberality) to either choose to love him or to choose NOT to love him. Those who choose NOT to love him are sent to hell, where they would prefer to be, since heaven is full of serving God, and they don't want to do that. God respects their decisions because he loves them and grants them the freedom the accept or reject his freely given grace/love. In that case, hell ain't so bad, since it's only for people who want it. And since everyone's decision for or against God is free, that means that God has somehow isolated a part of each person's spirit/mind/soul to be isolated from all influence, including that from even himself, so that a completely free decision may come out of the person. Only God knows how this decision comes about. And indeed, this decision looks rather random to us. No matter how much influence a person receives from her family, friends, social status, education, encounters with demons, afflictions suffered, etc., there is always that one extra itty bitty nameless space within the soul reserved for a completely free choice for or against Christ/God. We cannot prove that it is there, but we MUST believe it, since if we don't have it then God is MAKING us to choose him, and such a thing cannot be accepted. After all, there is no real significance in a love relationship that has been made inevitable by one of those involved. Just take a look at the love relationships you have been in and you will see. Love occurs spontaneously. You just get talking to someone and "something clicks." This is the mystery of that itty bitty space of freedom in every soul. Love has a seemingly random origin, and only this way can love really be love. Therefore if you show love to your neighbor and preach the gospel of grace to them, and they reject both your love and your good news, then leave them alone, since they are obviously choosing against God and love. And don't worry too much about preaching the gospel to the nations, since everyone will get their crucial moment of uninfluenced choice sooner or later...that is, the choice that comes from the core of their soul, that untouchable area that not even God can change. And the reason that God respects this untouchable area in the soul so much is that it is more important to him that our decision to love him come from a spontaneous God-knows-where (or perhaps he doesn't) origin than for it to be infused in us by his own hand. God is all-loving and all-powerful, yet he cannot, Absolutely Cannot, infuse all men with love for him while still letting them maintain REAL freedom. God cannot make contradictory realities, and that is what this would be, like ole' Clive says.

Jathan

Anonymous said...

A further note:

I suppose if you believe the second view, you could say that we should preach the gospel because it would bring the crucial moment of choice around sooner for some folks who WILL believe, and therefore you bring them joy sooner. This is pretty much the reason why a universalist would preach the gospel (with a few adjustments, of course), so I suppose the purpose of preaching the gospel is not really my concern. It is rather this: according to the second story, the greatest thing about humanity is its power of choice, NOT its capacity for a relationship with God. If I meditate upon certain people who would be deemed by many "not likely to be saved if they died in the next few minutes," I find it quite easy to imagine a redeemed, reconciled version of them in the arms of God, so thankful that God tweaked their hearts. What I find glorious in love relationships is the love, not the choice to love. It is surely true that I CHOOSE to love some people, and by that I mean that I choose to strive to develop a relationship of fellowship with them...enemies would be a good example...but I do so out of my love for God, from seeing through what I believe to be somewhat the eyes of God -- a God who loves EVERYONE ALWAYS -- I choose to love them not because my choice to love them is itself glorious, but because love drives me to do it. Love was already there. And with respect to loving God, I do not remember any crucial moment of decision where I deliberated: "Shall I love God now, or not?" What I found instead was a stubbornness in my soul to seek after God, no matter how much my mind disagreed with me, and no matter how many "different answers to life" I tried to seek, no matter how many doubts flooded my mind. I believe in a God who is bigger than man's choices, and who knows how to curb choices toward him without making us into robots. The very idea that we can conceptually put so many limitations on him to suppose that we'd be robots if God dared try such a thing sounds crazy to me. And on closer examination of the whole robot analogy, it evaporates rather quickly as an objection.

Anonymous said...

oops, that was me above

Ron said...

I have to say that I disagree with Universalism, jathan. It is odd because I am somewhat attracted to it because intrinsically I want everyone to eventually be saved but I don't think it matches up with the Bible. Now, you've told me that the view I sympathize with in C.S. Lewis' "Great Divorce" is even mmore unscriptural than the Universalist view. I have to agree that it appears that way at first glance, but what if hell only appeared like a place of "weeping and gnashing of teeth" from the perspective of someone in heaven. The definition of hell is eternal separation from God and I think this lines up with my annihiliationist reading of Scripture. I think that the people living in Lewis' "grey town" who are moving further and further away from the bus stop that leads to heaven can be said to for all intentsive purposes have ceased to exist. I defend this position because it we are selves because we are both exist in relation to ourselves and in relation to other selves. Thus the C.S. Lewis view can be correct.

I admit I am stretching the Bible a lot in stating this but quite frankly, while the Universalist view is nice in quoting "every knee shall bow" and various Universalist sounding passages from Paul, but I won't be convinced of Universalism on the basis of Paul and Revelation. I think only if Universalism is based on what Jesus actually said, than it can be held as a legitimate view of Christianity. If you know of any Universalist passages from the gospels could you let me know?

Just looking through my favorite gosepl of Matthew, I see, "Enter through the narrow gate, for the gate is wide and the road is easy that leads to destruction, and there are many who take it. For the gate is narrow and the road is hard that leads to life, and there are few who find it." Matthew 7:13 Notice the use of "destruction." I think this goes against the traditional idea of eternal torment and means just plainly "destruction." Now, the Lewis view is stretching scripture a bit, I admit but what if in order that freedom (and thus real love) is preserved God allows us to go to hell where from His vantage point we are "destroyed" because we have lost all relation to Him and His children? So to a person in hell, they may decieve themselves into thinking they are alright but in fact for all intensive purposes they have travelled the "path of destruction."

There are other passages in the gospels where Jesus warns of not worrying about those that kill just the body on Earth but he who can kill both the body and soul in hell. This is another annihilationist passage from the gospels.

These are the two passages that come to mind but I know that Jesus talks about hell in other places. Anyway, from my understanding, I take the annihiliationist viewpoint with the twist of Lewis' "Great Divorce" scenario. This is my tentative position though, since something about it seems implausible though I can't get my mind around it yet. There is just too many problems in denying free will that leap out at me. Determinism makes men into slaves, and Calvinism makes God into just a divine Slave.

I'm waiting from an idea that sounds like its from God and not the finite minds of men.

Micah said...

Jathan,
I think that I would mostly agree with Ron's assessment of universalism. I would like to believe it's true, but I don't think the Bible teaches that (Some of you will say to me Lord, Lord, but I will say "away from you evildoers, I never knew you)-or something like that; I don't recall the reference. I think that there are some who will always resist the prompting of God's spirit on their hearts, and will never acknowledge Christ. You're right: I don't know of any verses that describe hell as being a place that people would want to go, but I think that the implication is always apparent that people reject God, and thus the possibility of heaven, by there own choice. But then, I haven't studied scripture on this topic in much death.

I would hold to the liberal view that God gives choice to all to either seek Him or reject Him. (All who seek will find, if they seek with all their heart; Seek, and you will find, ask, and it shall be given to you, knock, and the door will be opened to you.) I would say that the importance of missions is not that God has left the fate of the world in our hands; I think that would be to deny His sovereignty. However, in the great commission, He charged us to make disciples of the nations. I think that God can secure someone's salvation without a missionary telling them about Christ in a way similar to the situation of Abraham, who clearly did not know Christ or the specifics of the Gospel, but this is something that is necessarily very private; it is just an awareness of in the heart of an individual. Out of this, a fellowship of believers cannot grow. The purpose of missions is to build the Church. We are not given stewardship over the souls of humanity (thank God), but we are, to some degree, stewards of Christ's church.

Some other thoughts on your comments here:

-I question whether free means uninfluenced. Is choice even possible without influences? I think that if freedom were random, it wouldn't really be free at all. Choice is the true expression of the desires that we have. We make decisions by weighing conflicting influences, which are the "material" by which a free choice is made.

-God can and does "tweak hearts". If He didn't would any be saved? I doubt it. However, I would contend that some people respond to this, and that other people resist. This sounds a bit like predestination, but maybe God pretty much knows who will always resist Him, and doesn't spend as much time on them. Yet the choice they make is still free, I think.

-Indeed, love is more valuable than the choice to love. But is love possible at all without mutual choice? We mustn't elevate human freedom as being the singularly greatest thing; that is nothing short of idolatry. We must recognize it's importance in serving the higher end of glorifying God by being what He made us to be.

-You make reference to your own salvation not being a conscious choice or effort, but it is this deep desire independent of cognitive effort that really is the foundation of choice and free will. Like I said, what we call choice is the outward expression of heat desires and longings, which can certainly be affected by God, and also resisted, or accepted.

-I certainly agree that God can (and does) curb our free will without making us robots, and I agree that the analogy doesn't work. Unless, however, our theology does do away with free will entirely. While I think that the threat of this is often exaggerated, I believe that some theologies do hold to the opposite false dichotomy that if God is to be sovereign, He must choose everything for us. Some will really claim that in order to view God as sovereign, we must buy into the idea that all of us were predestined before creation for either heaven or hell. That whole theology does, in my opinion, make us wind up toys, and far worse, makes God bored toy-maker playing with his little green army men. (Of course, I know that this is not your contention, so I guess that's kind of beside the point here.)

Good thoughts; keep them up!
-your brother Micah

Anonymous said...

Thanks for your input, Ron.

I think you should read over my comments again. Perhaps I am being too vague in what I am saying, too sarcastic when I should be upfront. I feel like these ideas swimming in my head are rather simple, but I am having much difficulty putting them into words. Anyways, the recent posts I put on this blog were mainly to address the issue of free will, not the Biblical support for Universalism. I also don't remember saying that Universalism held more scriptural support than Lewis' view. I had the thought that (and I apologize for not explicitly saying it) as long as you are willing to reach that far out from what the Scriptures say, it seems worthwhile to check out other positions commonly held to be unscriptural.

But right now I would rather just talk about free will and, unless Micah would like me to stop, talk about Biblical support later.

Perhaps my posts were ambiguous, but what I was trying to get across was that the free will doctrine commonly put forward to uphold common hell doctrines does not make much sense at all. Unless you take a look at your own life and study yourself, I doubt I can convince you of this. C.S. Lewis' position makes little sense.

Think about it:

God says to some at judgment, "So you want to be your own god in hell, huh? Okay, here you go." So unless this is a misleading framing of your position, you are saying that God lets people go where they WANT to go. (Micah, thanks here for clarifying my position somewhat.) Now I agree that if God predestined EVERYTHING to be exactly as it was, is, and will be, then the significance of life seems to evaporate for us. We would feel like puppets on strings.

But conceptually I have no problem believing that God creates free creatures who even have an assortment of desires freely developed, except that their love/desire/want for God was predestined. Please imagine that for a moment?

Now that certainly is not our world's scenario. There is obviously a large lack of love in this world. Did God predestine all of that? Perhaps, but I prefer not to think so. I prefer to think that it is somehow rooted in freedom, but perhaps not compartmentalized freedom of individual humans. I agree with at least the symbol of Satan in the NT that this world is under the dominion of evil (though I have little trouble believing in Satan as a person either). God seems to be at odds against much going on in human affairs down here.

But given all this, what now is the problem with believing that all people and all things shall be reconciled to God? As far as people go, this means being in loving fellowship with God and many others (which means, as far as we can see, that God will change the desires of some so that they will have love for him/others). In my recent posts, I've been fishing for an answer to why this should not or cannot happen. But as far as I can see, there is no good answer. And yet somehow people talk about there being a good answer, and that answer is why there is a hell. What is the good answer?

Now if there IS no good answer that our little heads (Micah, Ron, me, and whoever else wants to join) can conceive, so that those believing in eternal hell must admit that they believe it simply because the Bible says so, then I have met the goal of my previous posts here. Perhaps, if Micah permits, we can discuss Universalism from other angles then.

So I ask, what is this good reason that not all should be filled by God with love for God and others as we find that love in Christ? Why should not all be predestined to say in their hearts, eventually, YES to God? Indeed, that only a few (according to Ron) shall be saved?

Side note:

In my previous post, I mentioned that loving my enemies is trying to develop fellowship with them. I was thinking far too narrowly then. What Jesus' love means to me, I think, can be summed up pretty well as benevolent concern without end. I believe that he taught us to have benevolent concern for even our enemies.

Additional side note:

I believe that the grounds of Universalism come mostly from the teachings and actions of Jesus. But I believe that his teachings need to be interpreted in light of his actions, not the other way around, as most Christians do.

take care y'all,
Jathan

Anonymous said...

By the way, Micah, my previous post was mainly directed toward Ron... you posted just before I posted, methinks.

Anonymous said...

"I question whether free means uninfluenced. Is choice even possible without influences? I think that if freedom were random, it wouldn't really be free at all."

I totally agree. I was fishing. :-)

"Indeed, love is more valuable than the choice to love. But is love possible at all without mutual choice?"

This brings us right back to that clarification you made a few posts back. Is choice here something more like desire, or more like decision for action?

In a way, I think love itself is a choice, if you construe "choice" to mean something like deep-rooted desire. If this is the case, then it is at least true to say that loving fellowship is not possible without mutual choice. However -- and you know this -- God had deep-rooted for us long before we had it for him.

If, on the other hand, your contention is that love is only made possible by the choice "to love," I would disagree. I never made a choice in my toddlerhood to care for my brother. I just did at some point. I believe I had real benevolent concern even at an early age for some people. I did not understand how "deep" people go (and surely still have much to learn), but I did feel sad when people died, because I recognized value in them. If having benevolent concern for God and others is only possible by a choice "to have it," that is, "to develop it" or "make it come about in one's heart," then love is strictly the result of work, and since love for God seems to be the "criterion" for salvation, if not salvation itself, then salvation is based on works.

Ron said...

Whoa, you have a lot of thoughts Jathan. Let me try and respond in the order you bring them up.

"Indeed, that only a few (according to Ron) shall be saved?"

I didn't say only a few would be saved, I just quoted Jesus who said that most would walk down the path of destruction, so your disagreement isn't with me but with Jesus. To be fair though, Jesus says this in his Sermon on the Mount where he lays out a highly divine set of ethics that are unreachable to most people. I think Jesus knew that few would be saved this way. I think that his death and resurrection changed the picture though and I've seen it argued on Universalist websites that Paul thought that Jesus died for all people without exception. I agree with the Universalist interpretation somewhat but I don’t think it implies that ALL will eventually be saved. I think that free will makes such a scenario impossible. God can change most people’s wills towards him I think but there has to be effort on the persons’ side as well for it to work. A one-way love from God that just magically turns all peoples hearts towards him would look too me like a fancy work of robotics but definitely not anything human. I think God can and would to a lot to reconcile himself with all people but it is ultimately up to the person to decide. Consider this scenario:

A boy falls in love with a girl but she gives no indication of liking him back. He talks to her, goes out with her, and does everything he possibly can to get her to feel the same way about him. Yet nothing happens, she does not respond at all. There is someone or something(s) that she loves more than she loves him. She would rather be with those other people or things rather than be with him. He is deeply concerned, but he can’t force her to feel and act in a way that he knows would be better for both of them. To force her would not be love but would be greed and he couldn’t do that and remain himself. Since he really loves her, he respects her will and lets her go even though he knows that they both would be better off together.

This is my answer to the question, “But given all this, what now is the problem with believing that all people and all things shall be reconciled to God?”

Anonymous said...

Micah,

"I question whether free means uninfluenced. Is choice even possible without influences? I think that if freedom were random, it wouldn't really be free at all."

I have another thought concerning this remarks of yours. It is unavoidable that in the notion of human freedom, there is something that is uninfluenced, and the existence of this something holds up the individual's freedom. Those advocating the "free choice for faith" view (called it FCFF) will tell you that people's choices are certainly influenced, but yet the total effect of an individual's influences received upon herself will not be enough to necessitate or determine or force or compel or cause or "make so" whatever her final FFCF is. Thus, there is a "something extra" that remains untouched. This "something extra" is precisely what apppears to be random. Make sense?

Another way to look at it is that freedom entails that one's decision originates in oneself, and has no cause. Therefore, as Augustine observed, a free choice comes from nowhere (though he seemed to only talk about the free choice for sin). Sure, you can imagine all these influences tipping the individual this way or that, but ultimately it must always be something spontaneous that tips the individual "off balance" into a decision in one direction or in the other.

I fail to see the significance of this when it comes to faith or no faith, love or no love, in God. Indeed, I surely hope the salvation of my soul, my faith, and my love are not left to accident. And I hope that for everyone else too.

Anonymous said...

Ron, you said:

"A boy falls in love with a girl but she gives no indication of liking him back. He talks to her, goes out with her, and does everything he possibly can to get her to feel the same way about him."

What kind of love are you talking about here? This sounds like a crush or something. Are you speaking here of a deep concern for the well-being of another, regardless of who they are?

"He is deeply concerned, but he can’t force her to feel and act in a way that he knows would be better for both of them. To force her would not be love but would be greed and he couldn’t do that and remain himself. Since he really loves her, he respects her will and lets her go even though he knows that they both would be better off together."

Assuming that he really is concerned for her well being and knows that they would both be better off together, and assuming that there aren't any others who will be harmed by their being together, I fail to see how it is the case that "forcing" her to love him is greedy and selfish. When you have kids some day, will you let them do whatever they want? Is that what is best for them? Since when did Christian love become letting people do whatever they currently feel like doing? Is this not more than a bit strange if we Christians preach about rebuking our brothers and sisters with "hard love" yet preach of a God who supposedly TAUGHT us how to love and who lets us humans do whatever we want? What kind of love is this, Ron?

As for your notion of "forcing," when I hear the word, I typically think of something being done AGAINST one's will/desires. Yet the Universalist holds that God changes some of the will/desires of rebellious/unbelieving people. This act of God would only be "forcing" if the individuals plead with God before the conversion, "God, we beg you! Let us keep our sinful lusts and keep our hearts that turn away from you! We don't want to have desires for you!" Then, of course, God is using some force here, as I see it.

You said that you hold something of an annihilationist view. Is it against the will of these unbelievers that they die forever? Is that what they want? Will there be people at judgment who plead with God, "God, we do not want to be redeemed and renewed and reconciled to you. We would rather die. Destroy us now, PLEASE!" It seems to me that only such folks will be destroyed. Otherwise God is not giving people what they want.

But with that thought in mind, let us consider suicide. Is it a shame when someone kills herself? How many people kill themselves while not wanting to die? Probably quite a few. But how many kill themselves while WANTING to die? Probably all of them. I cannot imagine how else they could bring themselves to do it.

Here you have real yet very sticky issues. For it is quite imaginable that a person kills herself wanting to die, yet not wanting to die. She therefore has conflicting desires. She is divided against herself. If we are to respect this human being as a free creature, which desires shall we support? They are both hers, are they not? Which side of her is the "free" side? Which is the "real her"?

And even if she only had desire in her to destroy herself, would we let her do it if we could stop her? Would we not do everything we could to keep her from killing herself, and then do everything we could to make her not WANT to kill herself anymore? Would we not use FORCE, if possible, to change her desires and her attitude about life and herself?

If we WOULD do this, are we unrighteous for forcing her into something against her will?

Furthermore, I see no reason why God could not destroy those who reject him, just as you posit, and then create new beings that are exactly what the destroyed would be if they had been redeemed instead of destroyed. In fact, what the heck is the difference? Are we not all destroyed as we die in this world, and shall we not all be recreated at the resurrection?

You mention the robot analogy. Do you believe that we will be robots in paradise? Probably not. Then according to your line of thinking, even in paradise there will forever be the possibility of turning away from God. Heck, we could be saved, in the arms of God, and then, oops! We fall apart away from again. Is that what you envision paradise to be like?

Furthermore, did you make everything you are? Are you entirely self-made? Can you say that you made your faith? If you did, what prompted you to choose to have faith to begin with? If you do not believe, why would you suddenly choose to believe one day? For kicks?

Consider your alternatives if you are not a Universalist (as far as I can see):

(1) One's faith and love of God(and therefore your salvation) is in one's hands. God did his part, now you have to go the rest of the way. Good luck! Hope you're strong enough! Hope you know what to aim for, since "faith" can be such an ambiguous word.

(2) One's faith and love of God comes from an unknown origin, and nobody knows why some have them and some don't. It seems random, like an accident. Well, good luck to you! Hope you end up being a winner!

(3) One's faith and love of God are determined by God, that is, if God decides to grant one such things. Anybody could be chosen to go either way, there's just no way of really knowing. And God, for some reason, doesn't desire that all be saved. Just some. Good luck to you!

None of these sound like good news. Could any of these be the gospel?

You said that you're waiting for an idea that sounds like it is from God, instead of from men. How about this:

"You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.'

"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

"For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?

"If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?

"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

Do you think that the Father's perfection is to let his enemies be his enemies forever? Or is the perfection of God rather a love that never fails, a love that will NEVER give up on anyone?

And is it greedy for God to claim what is his? What has God not granted to us? What is truly ours? What do we not owe to God?

And if the Lord would like it that all be reconciled to himself, at the cost of overpowering some weak and vague freedom that we have -- a freedom that looks less and less free or relevant the more we inspect it -- shall we call him selfish? Shall we call him selfish for making something better out of all of us? For is it not a relationship with God that is the best for all of us?

And if sin is the best for some, then why should we rebuke them? Why should God be angry with them? If they have no capacity within themselves to be changed into beings fit for paradise, then why does God desire that they be saved? Why do we even call their sin "sin"? Are they really missing the mark? It seems to me that they don't even have the mark to miss!

And if Jesus did not come to save us from our sin, then what did he come for? Is it not precisely our unbelief and our rebellion that lies at the root of sin? Why can God not save us from this? If we are in the middle of it, how shall we and why would we ever "choose" to have faith and love God?

Anonymous said...

Ron,

What would bother me about the guy in your story forcing the girl to love him is this: he would seem to be "playing God" a little too much. But this thought isn't really all that rational. If it really was best for her, given all possible alternatives, for the guy to make her love him, and if changing her mind would not affect anyone else's destiny for the worse, and if she could be tweaked just enough to "see the light" and realize that it really is better for them to be together and to love each other, then I don't see the problem with him doing it.

Perhaps we have all seen too many cartoons where characters are hypnotized into love, becoming love-zombies. There is absolutely no need to view the changing of a heart in this way. I like to think of it as an epiphany, or a divine inspiration, or a joyous revelation...something in which the converted sees how he is now the completed version of what he was before.

But even if the guy IS playing God too much, God can play God without me complaining.

Ron said...

Fascinating thoughts Jathan, but I am not sure if the parent-child analogy is better than my boy-girl analogy for this reason. It seems as if we are sort of left alone here on this planet to fend for ourselves. One does not need to look around too much to see the darkness in this world. Everyone is going there own way. Some believe in strict empiricism of the modernist age, others look for fulfillment in the eastern religions, and still others wallow in spiritual darkness because they see no reason for hope. It appears as though there are as many different paths as there are people in this world. Even within Christianity we find striking diversity. It appears as if God has made us with a little bit of the freedom that He has. I believe he is totally free but we are only partially free, as in someone looking into a distant and foggy mirror. God loves all his creatures and wants especially men (people) to come to know him because we were created in His image. We are like children in one sense but in another it takes our cooperation with Him in order to come into a loving relationship with him.

My analogy with the boy and the girl shows that such a relationship needs both participants to work. It seems that God is mysterious in this life and I don’t think he’ll fully stop being mysterious in the next life. I think we will have a much clearer choice whether to be with Him or not but I don’t think our actions here are irrelevant when it comes to reconciliation with God. The attachments we make here matter and the things we do here matter. Universalism puts everyone on an equal footing with God when in reality; people have different wants and desires that are apart from God. People can decide in their hearts that they just don’t want to be with God just like a girl could decide despite all evidence to the contrary that being apart from me is better than being with me. Now I know that God is the Creator, Designer, and Maker of all and thus his relationship to his creatures is a lot different than a boy with a girl, but it does not match with what we know about God, that we would magically wipe away everyone’s imperfections so that they can be with Him. If he wanted that he could have just done that already, but he did not.

Instead He sent his Son into the world as a poor preacher, who healed sick people and proclaimed the coming of the Kingdom of God. He Son dies a shameful death but them appears resurrected to his followers after that and then leaves. If God were a Universalist than having this life is pretty meaningless. I remember your “baby on the conveyer-belt” analogy you used a while back. But I suppose your recent conversion to universalism has changed your mind quite a bit. (Btw, Jathan and I attend the same college, Micah). I think this life does mean quite a lot and I think Jesus was about that, otherwise healing a bunch of people, doing miracles, and dying a horrible death on a cross becomes quite meaningless. I sympathize with the universalist view and actually am perhaps in more agreement with them than with traditional Christians but I can’t understand how if everyone will be reconciled than the Great Commission, and all the commandments and parables really mean anything. Why not revel in sin and do horrible things to people? You know that you’ll be reconciled with God anyway.

I think the answer is that sin really does hurt your spiritual self and its relation to God and that what happens here on Earth really does affect what happens in the hereafter. Just as you have choice here, you have choice there, because choice is what makes us human. Without choice, there is no freedom, without freedom, no love, and without love there is no relationship to God. Relationship is by nature a two sided thing. I can’t have a true love relationship with a girl without her wanting it too. If I manipulated her into it by my sheer intelligence and magnificence (like God can) than pursuing a relationship becomes meaningless. God wants us to love him as we are, not as we ought to be because what we ought to be is by definition not who we are. If I love a girl and have the power to make her love me by changing her into someone who she is not, than it really isn’t her loving me is it? It’s true that it is a better version of her, but it isn’t her.

The real question that universalism brings is that why is God waiting? Why not reconcile everyone right now and just create being who are always with Him in love? Why even have this planet or this universe? Why create at all? Of course this question still arises no matter what your theology is but I think that theology has to reflect the way things are, not just the way we would like them to be.

I think we are on different pages when it comes to universalism. I see how it can be liberating to a certain extent but also dangerous because it devalues the course people take in life. You should read the “Great Divorce” because in it, Lewis shows that the decisions we make in life have a direct impact on what we do in there hereafter.

You ask some tough questions at the end. I don’t think sin is best for some. I think God wants people to have a relationship with him but not a relationship that violates their free will. I know you think that term to be vague and “that looks less and less free or relevant the more we inspect it,” but I don’t think it can be dismissed without rendering this life as meaningless. If the end of the road has us all turning into “Robots for God” than everything becomes quite meaningless.

God wants us to love him despite everything else. Part of the significance of Jesus was that he suffered the cruelest tortures of that time, so that to show that love can prevail over the darkness. The call of the gospel is a call to love in spite of the real presence of evil in this world.

Ron said...

Don't get me wrong Jathan. I would love if God could save ALL like the universalists believe, I just know if it is in God's character to do that, and I don't know how exactly he appraises free will.

I wish he were that loving, but it just does not harmonize with all the scriptures. I know about the proof texts of universalism but there are other texts that could through their assumptions into doubt. It almost seems as if God purposely does not want us to "figure him out" because you have to admit that we are profoudly imperfect creatures trying to guess the actions of a perfect Being that knows everything. It all seems quite funny in a ridiculous way if you look at it from afar.

Anonymous said...

3 thoughts.

"I wish he were that loving, but it just does not harmonize with all the scriptures."

I know you Ron. Your God is not loving enough that you can dance for him.

Second thought:

We are not truly free unless we can all be redeemed, and if we all CAN, then we all WILL, because that is what God so greatly desires. If we are so "free" that we can damn ourselves forever, we are not free at all, but slaves to randomness and transience forever.

Third thought:

If God had made us all perfect to start with, we wouldn't be able to be redeemed. The point of the transience and freedom of this world is that it will be redeemed. So no, I disagree. Just because the world is like this now doesn't mean it must always be this miserable, which is what it will come down to, since hell will go on existing forever.

Micah said...

Jathan,
About the comment you made earlier about freedom and influence: I agree that there must be some core, elemental aspect to a choice which is pure will originating in the being. My point was that this kind of choice does not, and in reality, cannot, exist independantly of the situations and influences which one might say are the material for the choices we make, at least on a practical level.

But I had another thought as well. I don't think that this "something else" is exactly random. I expect that we will agree that God is the only completely free being in the universe. This is not to say that He could possibly choose to not exersise this freedom to allow for a certain level of human freedom; the fact that it was by His choosing that this might be such tells us that He is in the ultimate sense, completely free. But are His choices random? Because His acts of will are completely original in Himself, they might be said to have been created ex nihilo. But this doesn't preclude randomness. His choices are extentions of His own character, of His very being-hood. If something is truly random, it comes out of nowhere and is without cause. If something is an act of will, it comes out of someone, and this person is himself the cause.

It is my belief that this is one way in which God has created man in His image and has given him a special sense of being-hood. He has given us the ability to make free choices. Man cannot create matter, like God can, he can only rearrange it. Who can think of creating a new color? This is an exclusively divine type of activity, but God has given us a share of it, so to speak, by giving us this ability to "create" a desision ex nihilo, which is to say, as a creative output of our own internal character or nature. In this way, there is a direct relationship between the freedom of an entity and its leval of being-hood, if you will.

Well, those are just some musings that were going through my head about that particular topic.
blessings,
Micah

Anonymous said...

Micah,

I agree that God's choices cannot be completely random. I think his freedom is a combination of randomness and necessity from his nature. I don't think ALL aspects of his creative activity necessarily flow from his nature.

As for God's goodness and love, I do not believe that such things are random in God. Therefore, any creative act he does is within the bounds of his love. Not all believe that it is necessary for God to be loving, but I believe so. I get the willies thinking about a God who might just up and change his mind one day, saying, "Nah, I'll be evil for a few eons now."

So...If God's love is necessary, and that's okay with us, why do we feel it so necessary to believe that our own love for God will NEVER be necessary (that is, made steadfast by his power). If our love or unlove flows from our character, where did our character come from?

your bro,
Jathan

Micah said...

Where did our character come from?

That is a great question. As Christians, I think that we can agree that we are made in God's image, yet are fallen. Being made in God's image gives us an ontological capacity for love, yet being fallen prohibits this potential to be realized: apart from God, any love we have is hopelessly imperfect. That is were there is significance in the concept that God loved us before we loved Him, and why this concept is necessary. Love is therefore a property of our character, but only by divine initive and sanctification.

Anonymous said...

I completely agree!

Either that, or our love begins as an accident. Truth is, I don't really care either way, for I believe that sooner or later love will begin in all of us at God's initiative.

The problem I have with the idea that we must turn back to him with our own love -- to receive his love that he gives freely -- in order to be saved, is that salvation itself is turning toward God in love and receiving his love. At least this is the first leap in the salvation process. Once this occurs, salvation has begun.

But how do we get there? Doesn't the problem with unbelievers and rebellious hearts lie in the very fact that they are rebellious and unbelieving? Don't they need to be saved from their own unbelief and rebellion?

If not, then why do we give a rip about people who seem staunchly unbelieving or hateful towards God? We want them to be saved too, no? At least God does. So God sees potential in them even if we don't.

What prevents them from salvation? Their rebellion and unbelief? But that's just saying that their unsaved state keeps them from salvation. Which is saying that their lack of salvation keeps them from salvation. Well, why won't God fill that lack?

The crossover from unsaved to saved is either accidental or from God. There is no eternal core in man that I can see. Anyone can be redeemed. So why wouldn't they?

What do you think?

Jathan

Micah said...

I'm not sure that it is completely accurate to say that salvation IS turning to God and recieving His love. It's difficult ground, because this is definately part of what salvation means. However, I might argue (and I'm not even sure of this yet) that this kind of love whereby return the love of God, belongs to the sanctification aspect of our salvation, wheras our salvation in its most precise sense belongs to the aspect of justification. I think you'll agree that salvation is not a human action but a Divine one: the act whereby Christ has endured the demands of justice for us, and we have been reconciled to God on the merits of Christ's righteousness. It is in this sense that God is the sole author of human salvation, not in the sense that He forces everyone to accept this for themeselves. Belief and repentence-which is the allowance of God's inititive and His call to take effect in our lives-mark salvation insofar as they are the result of what God has done to secure salvation for us, but I believe that God permits us to refuse this result. We can alter what God has done, be we can refuse to respond how He would have us do so. Because the very goal of salvation is to allow us to glorify God by allowing us to choose to love Him and accept Him, it seems to me that God must allow us this freedom of refusal.

This being said, I really havn't thought a considerable amount on the concept that everyone will eventually be saved. Of course, I hope that's true, and it's an idea I love. But between rational assertion that human freedom is necessary for human salvation and existence to glorify God the way He meant it to (and therefore implication that some humans will use use this freedom), and the Biblical language of Christ when He says that many will try to enter through the narrow door, but will not be able to; that Christ will not recognize them. (Lk. 13.24,25)

Yet what God has planned for eternity, nobody can know. I do like to think that there will be continual chance for redemption; I'm just not sure whether that's Biblical.

Blessings,
Micah

Anonymous said...

Micah, I felt the way you feel for a long time. But as a lover of truth, like yourself, I eventually came to some conclusions...

I love truth, not because of some morbid fascination with it, as Nietzsche was, but because in the depths of my soul, I yearn for the truth to be magnificent and good.

I realize that I seek truth in Jesus and his Father because he shines light into my life like nothing else ever has. I've fallen in love with Jesus. Perhaps you can understand what that's like.

At bottom, I trust the Bible on many things because the Bible speaks truth to my soul. I feel it in my bones. Of course, this is not the "truth" that we are being taught at our universities.

Jesus has shown me a way that I cannot turn away from. It was not placed upon my heart with evidence and arguments. I looked in my mind's eye at Jesus, listened to his words, saw him on the cross, and before I knew it, I was hooked. It didn't start out that way. It started out as me trying to prove that my parent's religion was correct.

I'm not sure you understand what I mean by salvation. Either that, or you're purposely dodging what I'm getting at. The salvation that I'm speaking of is "being saved." Pretty much how a man drowning in a river is in need of salvation from death. This seems pretty straightforward to me. But if you want more from me than that, then I suppose I'd say that "salvation" for me means getting right with God...TRULY right with God.

If anyone rejects God, they are not truly right with God.

Jesus told us to love our enemies. Now the best thing we can give our enemies is whatever brings them closer to knowing God. This is what I understand "pray for those who persecute you" to be getting at. Now if you truly practice loving your enemies in this way, you will find that you end up caring very much about their salvation. Much more than they do.

If God teaches us to care for others in this way, certainly he must care too. And I don't doubt that he cares a heck of a lot more than I do. Why would he ever stop caring about bringing people closer to him? This is what you say he does... he gives up on them one day. Well, my friend, if this is what Jesus is about, that is, telling us to love purely and then telling us that he won't always love people this way, then Jesus is no friend of mine.

But, fortunately for me, I don't believe this is the Jesus from the Bible. And if the rest of the Bible is at odds with Jesus, then I'll take Jesus and skip the rest. But I don't think that's true either.

You keep talking about the glory of human choice. You keep talking about how choice is necessary for love to exist... that we must CHOOSE love. But I have no idea what you're talking about. I've never made a choice to love unless love was already working in me.

And even if I did, what's so great about that? Really, what's so great about the thought that one day I wake up, shrug my shoulders and say, "Well, maybe I'll try love today...I'm kinda bored." Is that glorious human choice?

The glory of salvation is that God is meeting us where we are, and where we are is unbelief and rebellion.

Why are you so eager to believe in hell? Shouldn't you rather feel sad at the thought that even one person could end up there?

Micah said...

Hey Jathan,
it seems to me that at this point we're both just going back and forth with the same aurguments, and we're not really getting what the other is trying to say. I keep having to resist the impulse to assume that you are proposing a theology of total predestination, which, I do not believe to be your real position. Similarly, I would have you understand that I certainly am aware of the extent to which Christians commonly overvalue free will for it's own sake, and I do not wish to join in this error whereby we place glory in the realm of our own actions and not in who God is. Similarly, I would like it if you would not say that I am eager to believe in hell; that is an emotive and unjustified reaction to what I have said. I am only reluctant to throw out such a well-accepted and seemingly Biblical doctrine without a thorough understanding of what the Bible really says on the subject; if I'm convinced on this, I'd be more than happy to change my mind. I don't think that I like the idea of hell any better than you do. I do like the idea of a just God who responds appropriatly to human rebellion. I think that the real issue that you are getting at here is not God's justice, but to what extent God's justice administered through the death of Christ takes effect in justifying mankind. I think you agree that only those who believe (put faith or trust in) Jesus Christ, or those who God in His soverienty moves to come to Him through Christ, will be saved. If we opperate from the Arminian assumption that God wants everyone to be saved (and we both are opperating from this), the real issue seems to be the point to which God chooses to override our personal bias against this belief in Him. Because this is a bias that all of fallen humanity shares, it is one that God must always override to some extent. The question is whether there comes a point at which God, having invited us and moved us to the point that believing in Christ is possible and even desirable to us, will discontinue to override our will should we choose to reject this prompting. To use your analogy of human love relationships, in which we don't expressly choose to be in love, I think that if God were to make everyone believe in him would be analagous to me getting a girl drunk so she'll respond how I want her to. Not very loving at all. Not a perfect analogy, I know, but I think it makes a point. Besides, this analogy focuses on the emotional nature of love, and I'm not sure how much this aspect of human love corrosponds to our relationship with God in terms of our justification and redemption.

However, I do understand what you mean about falling in love in with Jesus, and I cringe at the thought of anyone missing out on this. I don't want this discussion to distract us from what's really important: that God loves every person He's created and deeply desires to know them, and that we, who have tasted the glories of His love, should be eager to share it with others.

Please tell me where you are coming from Biblically. It is not at all my intention to be dogmatic here, and I really do want to learn the truth. I am willing to consider your insights.

-brother Micah

Anonymous said...

Micah, I'm sorry for that comment about you being eager that people go to hell. It was certainly both emotive and unjustified.

Unfortunately, it's not cake to biblically prooftext universalistic viewpoints. I can give you some verse, but these verses can be interpreted for both traditionalist and universalist views...as is the case with the "everlasting hell" prooftexts.

The truth is that I am a traditionalist, an annihilationist, and a universalist all at the same time. I get giddy explaining how this is possible. I'd love to tell you about this, if you'd like.

I understand what you're saying in the drunk girl analogy, and this is the best way I can respond for now...

If God's nature, in his core, really is love (the love that Jesus lived), then love is the beginning of everything. Love is life. Love is human life. Love is light for men. But I can keep saying the word "love" and you might not understand what I mean. I mean the love that Jesus lived. It is devotion, compassion, benevolent concern.

If you follow his command, that is, to love your neighbor, the more wholeheartedly you do this, the more you realize how empty and dead life is without having love and without being loved. You realize that the greatest glory of an human being is loving God and being loved by God, the God who is love.

Life begins with Jesus' brand of love. This is the meaning, in my opinion, of being born again. The problem with humanity is that it is extremely lacking in Jesus' brand of love. To love in this way is for us to become a new creation.

The more you love, the freer you are. The freer your will is. Love is the source of freedom, not the other way around. Love creates. Love chooses.

What humanity needs is a wake-up. So in my opinion, humanity is already drunk in sin and muddleheadedness. It is blind. God is going to make us all sober. Our identities as sinful creatures will pass away. Such identities are untrue; they are lies. That is not who we truly are. Our identity is found in God's perspective. Only he can really make us individuals. Our identity is found in God and only God. That is why the unrighteous are identified as the unrighteous, instead of "those who prefer something else."

Human destiny is ONLY supposed to be love in God. Once this sinks in, you realize that the world is sick, depraved, drunk, half-asleep.

But you can only see this through compassion. Perhaps we can talk about Biblical particulars after talking about this a little.